Édouard Philippe could also be overwhelmed and at the heart of a social storm, he took the time. Virtually two hours, Friday, December 13 within the morning, to welcome seven readers of the Parisian-At the moment in France in his workplace in Matignon, on the primary flooring the place the Prime Minister first performed the guides. "Properly right here it’s … it's right here," he stated to his hosts, inviting them to discover the place. "It's very golden," then concedes the pinnacle of presidency, virtually embarrassed.
His workplace was completely organized for the event. For its guests, it opens the home windows which overlook the park, one of the vital well-known in Paris. "Typically, when the solar is shining, I wish to go there to make telephone calls," he confides to Virginie, 36-year-old nursery director, who takes the chance to take some pictures, comparable to the opposite "panelists".
Then all take their locations round a big oval desk the place Édouard Philippe enters the topic, with no remark spherical. He inquired in regards to the difficulties of everybody on strike towards the pension reform, whose contours he unveiled on Wednesday. "Are you having hassle getting round now?" "Mohamed, laughing, warns the small meeting:" Consideration, the Prime Minister is a boxer. He hit! ". " By no means! », He exclaims with an enormous smile.
Relaxed, the pinnacle of presidency? The stress could be seen in his clenched palms, and that piece of paper that he tears methodically when answering questions. Courteous, he can be a bit brittle, dismissing in an aggravated tone the figures circulating on the longer term quantity of pensions or the revaluation of academics: "all of the simulators are false!" ", He pings. He additionally takes the chance to make sure the "good faith" of his High Commissioner for Pensions Jean-Paul Delevoye, in turmoil after the "oversights" of his declaration of pursuits.
It’s stated to be drained, wrung out? He will get misplaced a bit within the days, as when he talks a few strike that has lasted "two weeks". Eight days in actuality (ten, if we rely till this Sunday, December 15) … which can appear twice as many from his workplace in Matignon. One in every of our readers is called after him, Edouard. "It makes me bizarre," he smiles, after listening to a number of occasions pronounce the primary identify. "Discover, they are going to name me Edouard longer than the Prime Minister," he philosophizes.
Would he really feel on an ejection seat within the occasion of a retreat on the reform? He could elude, the troubles are there. They meet up with him even after an hour and 1 / 4 of interview when his telephone begins to ring frantically. He instantly stiffened whereas studying on the display screen: "Safety drawback". "Excuse me," he breathes, slipping away for a number of moments. He has simply discovered that the police killed a person who threatened them with a knife at La Défense. Right here he’s pressured to shorten the assembly by leaving his visitors on these phrases: “It's scorching! ".
THE STRIKE AND ITS CONSEQUENCES
"The French wouldn’t settle for that some might deprive them" of Christmas
Edouard Degree. The nation went on strike even earlier than you offered the reform. Did you count on it?
EDWARD PHILIPPE. I used to be below no illusions, by committing myself to this reform, that there can be demonstrations, strikes. Admittedly, there have been very frequent strikes, however solely in a number of public service our bodies. I don’t underestimate it. So I wouldn't say the entire nation is on strike. It isn’t a complete blockage, however it’s painful. It’s, furthermore, this impression on tens of millions of Ile-de-France residents that’s sought by sure union organizations. I additionally be aware that that they had chosen to name a strike on December 5, which is their proper, once we had stated from the beginning that we’d give our mission in mid-December. They due to this fact selected to announce the strike earlier than figuring out the mission, it’s their technique.
Wasn't there nonetheless a communication drawback in your half?
We largely tried to take our time. This may increasingly appear odd, as a result of we typically additionally give the impression of desirous to go rapidly to make reforms. However there, under no circumstances. We tried to take the time with the union and employer organizations. And I don't remorse having accomplished it. On paper it’s fairly easy: create a single retirement system for everybody. However to design it, to debate the circumstances below which we go from 42 current regimes to 1, that may be very sophisticated. I knew it. However I’ll proceed to take the time it takes.
Charihene El Hettak. However don't you worry the nation's paralysis for Christmas?
I don't precisely ask myself the query like that. My way of thinking is summed up in a components: I’m agency on the desire to alter the regime, however not closed, as a result of I stated from the beginning that I used to be able to proceed engaged on the applying procedures. And that’s the reason I known as on the social companions to debate this coming week. As quickly as doable. My door is open. Afterwards, I can see that everybody is anxious about Christmas coming. Christmas is a vital time. And everybody must take accountability. I don't assume the French would settle for that some folks might deprive them of this second.
Edouard Degree. And why not a referendum to ask the French for his or her opinion?
Legally, this isn’t not possible. We stay in a democracy and I remind you that the President of the Republic and the deputies have been elected to do what was promised. They’ve a mandate to alter the present pension system. After which, I remind you that the textual content which can convey in regards to the reform may be very huge, with a number of topics to debate. So I believe a evaluate by Parliament is crucial. I’m not afraid of referendums in any respect, however it’s good to confront the texts with the bulk and the oppositions. I strongly imagine in consultant and parliamentary democracy. Moreover, the referendum, sure, it’s helpful. However historical past has typically proven that one other query was answered than the one requested. And infrequently the referendum crushes the general public debate.
Virginie Courreges. What would be the financial impression of this motion? Does France not threat dropping its attractiveness?
Once we contemplate abolishing the particular regimes, we all know that there’ll essentially be strikes and an impression. Particularly on merchants, tourism, corporations, and many others. We’re very vigilant. And the knowledge we have now in the mean time signifies that the nation is disturbed, however not blocked. There’s vital discomfort in sure sectors, the resort trade, tourism, commerce, however no complete blockage. In any case, I requested Bruno Le Maire, the Minister of Economic system and Finance, to take inventory with the retailers to watch the impression on their day-to-day gross sales. We’re finding out particularly smoothing measures for the cost of their social safety contributions, in order that they handle to cross the course. We had already accomplished it on the time of the Yellow Vests.
HIS FUTURE AND DUO WITH MACRON
"There isn’t any lag with the President of the Republic"
Josselin Lucke. We all know your friendship with Alain Juppé. Are you speaking about this reform with him? Did he advise you?
(Laughs). No, he didn’t give me recommendation. We discuss to one another recurrently. I prefer it rather a lot and I believe it's shared. He wished me good luck. Like all individuals who know that attempting to alter the retirement system very deeply is an intense train. All those that love me have wished me good luck. And, furthermore, even those that love me much less …
He skilled the identical factor with the strikes of 1995 …
Sure, however it was very different 1995. And the large distinction is that in President Chirac's program, there was nothing to query the pension system, quite the opposite. He even acquired elected on a really totally different line. And on the time, the interval of discussions with the unions had been a lot sooner, and due to this fact a lot much less accomplished in a means.
William Piat. However in case you fail to make this reform, what’s going to you resolve?
I don’t place myself on this way of thinking. I take advantage of all my vitality to make it work and make it a superb mission.
What if it doesn't work? Are you resigning?
I don't ask myself that form of query. In any other case, we don't do something anymore. In life, there are many conditions the place we typically say that it could not cross. However I’m attempting to persuade my fellow residents that this reform is a plus. This reform, I imagine in it. I’m decided. For this reason I’m calm.
Mohamed Elmadekor. Emmanuel Macron has not spoken but. You, sure. Is there one thing fuzzy?
There isn’t any blurring, no lag with the President of the Republic! We are able to even say that it has been a very long time since we had seen a President of the Republic and his Prime Minister so aligned.
Edouard Degree. But when the reform doesn’t go all the best way, does the five-year time period nonetheless make sense?
With a number of "if" we don’t transfer ahead. As my grandmother used to say: with "ifs" we’d bottle Paris. I’m not within the "if", however within the " I do ". Since I arrived in Matignon, I’ve typically been requested this query. And we held on. Look, a 12 months in the past everybody talked in regards to the withholding tax and stated that we have been enjoying huge. We labored properly. The President put good stress on us. Outcome: who’s speaking at this time in regards to the withholding tax? Extra folks ! As a result of it really works. Everybody sees it. After all we by no means know if we are going to succeed! However life is that.
Edouard Degree. Given the latest revelations across the Excessive Commissioner for Pensions Jean-Paul Delevoye, ought to he resign?
I believe that Jean-Paul Delevoye's good religion is complete. He defined it. When he was sure that one thing in his assertion (Editor's be aware: to the Excessive Authority for the transparency of public life) didn’t go, he, on the similar time resigned from the mandates for which he was not remunerated, and undertook to reimburse instantly the sums in query.
64 YEARS AND THE SIMULATOR
"We need to create a system that leaves room for particular person selection"
Josselin Lucke. You’re going to put a penalty on staff who go away at age 62. Why not make it clear that you’re elevating the authorized retirement age to 64?
That is what the precise provides, which desires to place the authorized age at 65. That signifies that if you wish to liquidate your retirement, you must wait till then! We don't need that. We need to create a system that leaves room for particular person selection. At the moment, the authorized age is 62 years. However, in reality, all of it is dependent upon your size of contribution. If you’d like a whole retirement, it takes 42 and even 43 years, so typically keep very late. There are a number of French folks with a uneven working life who need to work till 66 or 67! For instance, there are 80,000 ladies a 12 months who wait 67 years to go away with full retirement. Sooner or later, these French folks will be capable of go away earlier with a greater retirement, which is nice social progress. And if we wish pensions to be preserved and contributions to not improve, we are going to regularly need to work a bit of longer. Based on the Pension Orientation Council, the retirement age for all needs to be 64 years. We create a system the place, when you’ve got further revenue and need to go away at 62, you are able to do it.
Mohamed Elmadekor. That's all very properly, however with what quantity of pension?
With a pension which will probably be a bit of decrease, it’s true, than that which you’ll have at 64 years, which would be the age of the total fee. Conversely, those that at this time are pressured to go away after age 64 can go away earlier. And if you wish to work longer, your pension will probably be a bit of greater. We don’t need to drive folks to work longer, however we need to encourage them to steadiness the system. Everyone knows that we stay longer, so that we’ll work longer. All the countries next to us have done it. That is additionally the case with us, once we take a look at the typical age of departure ( Editor's be aware: 63.four years ). However if you wish to be well-liked, you don't need to say it! I assume to inform the reality. I’d add an essential ingredient in terms of lengthy careers: within the present system, if you begin working earlier than the age of 20, you may go away two years earlier than the others. I believe it's a superb system, it's helpful to maintain it.
William Piat. Can we proceed to have factors after 64 years?
Sure, if we need to proceed working, we are able to proceed to amass factors. It's a hell of a distinction from at this time. Take your case: you’re a craftsman and also you liquidate your retirement rights at 62, however you need to proceed working. Within the present system, on this case, you don’t earn any further rights. Sooner or later plan, you’ll contribute factors, so you’ll enhance the extent of your retirement. Many unions have requested us to take action, we have now taken it under consideration.
Charihene El Hettak. And the way is it going, this story of factors?
You should have an account and it is possible for you to to have everlasting entry to the variety of factors you might have collected based on the variety of hours, days and remuneration, no matter they could be. This mechanism will probably be sophisticated to assemble however, in use, will probably be quite simple: it is possible for you to to search out your variety of factors and, as the worth of the purpose will probably be outlined, instantly know your pension rights. It's like a mobile phone: I can't clarify the way it works inside, it's tremendous sophisticated, however I understand how to make use of it, it's quite simple.
Virginie Courreges. When will the simulator be put in?
We are building it, it isn’t straightforward. All of the assumptions, all the info should be stabilized. The groups of the Excessive Commissioner for Pensions ( Editor's be aware: Jean-Paul Delevoye ) handle it. I requested them to make a most of ordinary instances, for instance: "I’m a professor within the public service, I’m 50 years outdated and three kids, what will probably be my retirement tomorrow"? These customary instances, I need them earlier than December 18. Then there would be the actual simulator, that’s to say full, which can permit everybody to get an thought of the results for him of the reform. I need it as quickly as doable, it's sophisticated to construct, so slightly throughout 2020, ideally firstly of 2020. I’ll proceed to place a number of stress on the groups!
Will this simulator be straightforward to entry?
When the system is launched, there will probably be an software for many who have a smartphone. It is going to be January 1, 2022, the date of entry into drive of the brand new system for many who are 18 years outdated and can have their first job. On this date, we will even put many optimistic issues in place, such because the minimal pension of 1000 euros for many who have contributed all their lives. For artisans, farmers and a few merchants, this can be a appreciable advance. Then, on January 1, 2025, three years later, all these born after 1975 will probably be transferred to the brand new system.
SPECIAL PLANS, SENIORS …
"After I hear that the present system is basically good … you converse, Charles!" "
Mohamed Elmadekor. I’m a former railway employee. In 2011, I requested for my retirement to make means for a teen. Are you aware how a lot I used to be supplied? 701 euros monthly! What will we do with it? I’m afraid that the brand new reform will probably be even more durable.
After I hear sure union organizations inform us that the present system is basically good … you converse, Charles! The regime we need to put in place has, to begin with, no penalties for people who find themselves already retired. They’ll proceed to obtain their pension and it’ll not lower. Then, we need to ensure that all those that will assert their rights will be capable of profit from an actual retirement, particularly those that have contributed to a number of totally different funds. At the moment, I guarantee you, it's not straightforward! Myself, I'm on 5 retirement plans… Tomorrow, if you’re at some point a civil servant, then an worker or self-employed, there will probably be no penalties, since it is going to be the identical plan for all: you proceed to earn factors, they are going to add up, their worth will probably be assured, so it is going to be less complicated, and ahead!
Théophile Bancal. You offered your reform by insisting that it could be fairer. Christophe Castaner, the Minister of the Inside, nevertheless introduced that the particular police regime can be retained…
That's not what he said, and that's not what we're going to do. It has all the time been stated common system just isn’t a uniform system. We don’t essentially need all troopers, together with those that go to battle zones, to go to age 64. We don't need to find yourself with a regiment of fighters who’re 63 years outdated! There are operational specificities, notably in so-called regal professions, comparable to the military and the police, which should be taken under consideration inside the framework of the common regime. In the identical means, we aren’t going to ask a star dancer of the Opera to bop till age 64.
However every of the particular diets will let you know: "I too have my specifics, my difficulties! "
The arduousness criterion, this mechanism which already advantages personal sector staff, will probably be a method of responding to it. We’ll open this method to the general public service. At the moment, evening work just isn’t taken under consideration for public officers, or on fully totally different guidelines. It isn’t honest. For nurses and caregivers, it will have a big impact.
Charihene El Hettak. You have got introduced the abolition of particular regimes. The place will we begin, and the place will we finish?
All on the similar time and we end on the similar tempo.
VIDEO. Strike: seven readers of "Parisien" ask their inquiries to Edouard Philippe
"Our goal is to revalue the salaries of academics from January 1, 2021"
Charihene El Hettak. And the salaries of the police, academics … We make a number of effort and we aren’t paid sufficient. I did my calculations on the union simulators. With the upgrading promised by Mr. Blanquer, that makes me 20 euros extra monthly!
Excuse me, I’ll say it in a slightly brutal means: all of the retirement simulators that you simply see mendacity round are false! Sorry to say, however the unions can not know exactly what we’re going to do by way of trainer upgrading, since this dialogue has simply been launched. If we examine the remuneration of French academics in comparison with different international locations, they earn much less, it’s indeniable. However in retirement, they’ve a slightly above common pension. With our system, academics are underpaid throughout their profession after which they find yourself with greater pensions than different international locations. Our aim is to extend the salaries of academics. This may begin on January 1, 2021, based on phrases to be decided in the course of the first half of 2020 and which can apply for a number of years.
Edouard Degree. On the employment of seniors, notably within the personal sector, many corporations are likely to separate themselves from folks aged 50-55 for worry that they won’t comply with go well with…
You’re proper, there are corporations that don’t behave properly. However not simply corporations. We have now a considerably weird society which tends to think about that from the age of 50 we turn into senior when life is slightly much less laborious than fifty years in the past. We’re additionally slightly more healthy, we stay longer. I’m virtually 50 years outdated. I’m able to match right into a ten boxing coaching session. Okay … perhaps not ten. Opposite to well-liked perception, the unemployment fee for seniors is decrease than the opposite classes. Alternatively, if you cease having a job at 55, it's rather more tough to search out one. Second factor, at this age, you’re rather more delicate to questions of working circumstances than at 30 years outdated. Right here, we have now a vital effort to make. Somebody who works on development websites, in development, at 55, it’s certain that it’s tough. The hardship should be capable of go away a bit of earlier. With this reform, we encourage all folks to work a bit of longer, it’s true, and we assume it. However we are going to take into consideration the person routes when there have been strenuous actions. And that’s very reasonable.
William Piat. What are you going to do towards employers tempted to separate from seniors?
We instructed Sophie Bellon (Editor's be aware, Chairman of the Board of Sodexo) a mission to maintain older staff in employment. We must put stress on companies.
That’s to say that there will probably be a “Identify and Disgrace” system for the job dunces of seniors? Marlène Schiappa did it properly on gender equality…
Give me time to organize the federal government's plan. There’s an outdated thought of sure unions which consists in saying: one might work a bit of greater than 35 hours per week when one is 30 years outdated, and rather less when one is 61. A logic of time administration all through of life. I’m not certain that it could be technically straightforward to implement, however taking inspiration from it appears sensible to me.
Charihene El Hettak. To rebalance the system, why is the federal government not trying to get better more cash on tax evasion, tax fraud? And on the richest?
Within the new system everybody contributes: airplane pilot, social employee, prepare driver, Prime Minister… Everyone seems to be within the system and contributes in the identical means as much as 120,000 euros in annual revenue. For the a part of the revenue which exceeds 120,000 euros, this represents 2% of the French, they are going to proceed to contribute as much as 2.eight% with out this giving them rights. Which means that the wealthiest will contribute to the rights and pensions of others. Then, relating to tax fraud, you must be ruthless. These are individuals who handle to not pay in conscience what they need to pay in taxes. That’s the reason we took a bundle of measures. The withholding tax has made it doable to get better round 2 billion euros, just because folks overlook to declare their revenue rather less. Let's be clear, we’re doing greater than what was accomplished earlier than.
William Piat. As we are able to see from the principle financial pointers, is it the European Union that’s dictating this reform to you?
It has nothing to do with the European Union! We’d be exterior it could be the identical. The query is: how will we steadiness the system, figuring out that there will probably be increasingly more people who find themselves retired and fewer and fewer who will work, and due to this fact who will contribute.
Théophile Bancal. Why not capitalize?
It's not higher, as a result of when you might have an enormous inventory market, financial shock, pensions lower…
Readers of Parisien-today in France. Charihene El Hettak, 30, Paris (13th century). Historical past-geography trainer. Mohamed Elmadekor, 64, Compiègne (Oise), retired railway employee. Théophile Bancal, 25, Paris (15th), job seeker. Josselin Lucke, 20, Amiens (Somme), pupil at Sciences-Po. Édouard Degree, 44, Paris (XVI), director in digital conversion. William Piat, 38, Châtillon (Hauts-de-Seine), craftsman. Virginie Courreges, 36, Paris (19th century), crèche director.